From PhD to policies

This week, Joe Llanos from the RSPB chat to us about his experience transitioning from academia (PhD at Sheffield) to working with NGOs and policy making at The Wildlife Trusts and the RSPB.

You did some policy-related stuff (a placement with the Parliamentary Office of Science & Technology – writing briefings for MPs on specialist topic) during his PhD – why did you get involved in that?

Like many of us, Joe started to get a bit disillusioned with the academic model – he wanted to do something that would make more of an impact on important challenges like climate change. There used to be a group at Sheffield called Science in Policy that would occasionally do events, workshops, discussions etc., and Joe got into policy via this group and heard about the placement opportunities through that. The placement got Joe really interested and he decided to try leaving academia to work in policy. It’s obviously a really crucial time right now in terms of addressing climate change and nature loss, so Joe thought it would be good to apply his skills to developing evidence-based policy that would contribute to meeting these challenges.

So how did you do the jump from e.g. paper-writing to policy? What skills/tools were useful?

Scientists entering policy development have a big advantage in that we have very useful, specific skills that others working in policy may not have e.g. working with data. On the flipside there are other skills which scientists may need to work on developing further, e.g. networking, talking to non-scientists and people from all walks of life while communicating effectively. Doing outreach during the PhD really helped Joe to develop these soft skills, and generally he found doing lots of training outside core PhD skills to be very beneficial. For example, a workshop with a professional actor learning how to communicate assertively in difficult situations is still something that Joe feels he benefits from years later. Joe really recommends making sure you engage with this kind of stuff as well as core research training – it’s been really helpful to him in moving into policy.

For people who haven’t had a chance to do a placement, what are the hard selling points that are good to get your foot in the door in policy?

Joe thinks the science background really is the main selling point in itself – working with data and the ability to apply data in developing policy are key. Wider skills gained by doing a multi-year research project and producing something concrete at the end of it are really valued regardless of the specific PhD topic. Emphasising their project management skills, ability to critically analyse complex information and communicate effectively are all really useful transferable skills that post-grads can flag.

Joe notes that he took a slight step down to get into policy – his first policy job was probably slightly closer to an entry-level job than a postdoc would have been.

So how does your job actually work? What’s the process of developing policy?

The process can be quite varied – there are lots of different jobs within policy e.g. data analyst, public affairs roles (building relationships with politicians). Joe’s current role is ‘Senior Policy Officer’ but he works mainly specifically on land use policy (including food and farming). His role involves public affairs-type things like building relations with MPs, explaining RSPB’s recommendations for policy stances, but also more research-connected stuff like doing analysis, producing reports, building an idea of what would actually make good policy. An example of some policy that NGOs including the Wildlife Trusts and RSPB contributed too is the post-Brexit Agricultural Transition Plan, specifically getting the the concept of ‘public money for public goods’ introduced. This enables farmers to ‘access public money to help them deliver environmental and animal welfare outcomes on the land they manage and to help their businesses become more productive and sustainable.’ The Wildlife Trusts and RSPB now do lots of analysis on what is actually good land use, and then identifies what policy levers would be good to pull to achieve this.

Another aspect of the job is collaborating with other organisations and Government Departments to draft bills which would be ready to present to parliament, and it also includes lots of stuff related to science as well – reading papers, going to conferences, doing presentations and talking to journalists etc..

Do you also work with universities, specific researchers etc?

Yes, but the RSPB actually has its own Conservation Science research department, which is unusual for an environmental charity (and a big asset!).

How does policy development in an NGO differ from working for the government directly, for example as a civil servant?

As part of an NGO, you’re less directly involved in writing policy but it allows you to say things you wouldn’t be allowed to say in government – essentially taking on a more partisan position, advocating for a cause. This is the big benefit of working in an NGO – as a civil servant, you could end up working for a government whose policies you don’t agree with. Civil servants can perhaps have more direct impact on policy, but your hands are tied to a certain extent. In contrast, with an NGO, you can work to advocate for a cause that you believe in.

Does government actually listen to and engage with advocacy groups like the RSPB?

It’s really varied – some people may have vendettas against particular organisations and not want to work with you, but there are also people with whom the RSPB has really good relationships and works quite closely with. It takes time to build those relationships, and sometimes you know it will be very difficult trying to work with certain MPs because you know they won’t be amenable or have links to other lobbying groups. However, you can build really positive relationships and in doing so help to break down barriers and preconceptions that politicians may have. Finding areas of common ground and demonstrating how improving certain environmental policies can help the Government meet their other targets and aims (e.g. how climate action can also boost jobs) also helps. Joe personally has had one MP be abit rude to him when working at Parliament, but on the whole most are pleasant to work with.

What is the size of the NGO you work with, and what is the difference in terms of hierarchy to that seen in academia – how is it different working at an NGO?

The RSPB is biiiig – about 14,000 staff and volunteers. They have partnerships and projects across the world. There is a hierarchy, but the organisation is quite good about saying that to an extent, the hierarchy doesn’t matter and there’s a lot of autonomy. At The Wildlife Trusts, it was smaller and has a federated structure, meaning it’s made up of lots of smaller local charities with a small central team that helps to coordinate. This was nice in some ways because it was very varied, whereas at a larger organisation you have a very specifically defined role. For example, at the RSPB there are more people working specifically on different aspects of communications, so you’re less likely to be involved in that if it’s not you’re specific job. Something to bear in mind is that generally larger organisations are can bemore inefficient. For example, if you want to tweet something from the official RSPB account, it has to go through like three different departments to be checked and approved, whereas in a smaller organisation you can just do stuff yourself to a greater extent.

How do you solve problems with differences in opinion within the organisation? How radical a position can you take in conversations about pressing but divisive topics like climate change?

The RSPB is a large and old organisation, so it can be more difficult for them to adopt more radical positions than it would be for a smaller or lower profile group. However, there is a lot of opportunity to feed back about the charity’s position. Joe works not just on external, governmental policy but also on the RSPB’s internal policy on emerging issues. This inevitably involves compromise and can be difficult sometimes, for example Joe has certain issues in which his personal opinions differ from the organisational position but in general, it is very rewarding and you feel you’re making a difference.

If, for example, you have to set up a policy internally, what’s the relationship between data and policy? How do you navigate between very specific papers and general policy? Is there frustration in navigating differences between what the data show and what can realistically be done?

It’s important to note first that if you waited for all the data, you’d never get anything done - you sometimes have to find a position before all the evidence is properly there. Sometimes though, the evidence lines up neatly into a clear policy position, and this is especially true if research is designed with policy in mind. Policy on pesticide use is a good example of this. The existing evidence base is used to develop a general position, and then further studies are designed to refine this position in more specific areas such as pesticide use on wildlife reserves. This does take time though, so sometimes you have to just base your position on the available evidence. Policy can always be updated as more evidence becomes available.

How is the pace of work compared to academia? More fast-paced? More turnover?

It varies from team to team and by organisation. For example, The Wildlife Trust was very different in pace initially, as when he started there Joe was able to clock off at the end of the workday and forget about it, which isn’t always the case in academia. However, as you get more responsibilities this work-life balance tends to erode and it gets more fast-paced. Working for a big organisation has advantagesas you might find you have a more manageable workload and it’s more team-based. In general this is another big difference to working in academia – in an NGO work is much less individual and much more team-based, which is an aspect that Joe really values.

Do you feel it’s quite rewarding to see a more immediate impact of your work than you might see if you work in academia?

Policy is still slow – it takes years to get policy through parliament, so in some respects it’s not so different to academia. It can take decades from starting campaigning on an issue to actually seeing policy implemented. It varies from case to case, but Joe finds more job satisfaction in policy as you also see more immediate small impacts like MPs referencing your work, or changes in organisational policy. This obviously varies from person to person and between organisations.

What does your typical day work day look like?

Initially, when he was at a lower rung of the ladder, work was quite top-down you’d be told to go away and write a briefing on something, for example. Joe now has more freedom to decide what he needs to work on. Joe works remotely, although RSPB has lots of offices across the country. Sometimes he’s just working on his own and there’s a lot of scope for planning your own time, but he does have a lot of meetings etc. as well.

The job requires him to be abreast of a large scope – Joe is a specialist on food and farming policy, but also is involved in other stuff he’s less familiar with, so he has to do his own research to build his understanding on this and he and his team block out time to inform themselves about stuff. This is something that is actively encouraged by managers.

Day-to-day, it’s a really variable timetable. Can sometimes be really busy being out and about at conferences and meeting people, sometimes just spending most of the week at home sending emails and in online meetings etc. Joe feels he’s made the right move for him but it’s important to note it’s not a utopia and has pros and cons as any job.

Do you have access to scientific literature?

Paywalls are really annoying! Frustratingly, the science team has access to the literature but the rest of RSPB doesn’t, so sometimes have to e.g. contact scientists directly to get access to some papers or find other ways to get access (like using (sci-hub)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-Hub]). It’s worth noting that there’s also a lot of science and data that doesn’t get published academically. For example, policy documents might have associated data which isn’t published in the ‘scientific’ way – so-called ‘grey literature’.

How did you manage the transition to fully remote working?

Generally it’s a mixed bag. It’s been three years and Joe feels like he’s still transitioning after starting working remotely during covid. Unfortunately, RSPB doesn’t have a Sheffield-based office and is actually closing some offices as people haven’t returned to the office post-covid. As a non-profit, grant- and membership-based organisation, it’s hard to justify spending large amounts of money on big fancy offices if they’re not well-used. For Joe it would be great if there was an option to work at the office 3 days a week, but the RSPB is at least pretty flexible on working in places like cafés or libraries (obviously that varies among organisations).

In terms of efficiency of designing research with policy in mind, does the RSPB provide any general guidance on how to make your research more policy-friendly?

Not as much as Joe would like – there’s lots of close links with certain universities, but Joe would like researchers to have a more active involvement in the research that takes place on organisational wildlife reserves, having conversations to talk about making the research useful for the society as well as the researchers. It’s a work in progress.

Would you say you have to be a people person to work in policy? How important is communication?

Not exactly – you obviously have to have meetings and be able to communicate with people, but you don’t have to be a ‘people’ person and be super extroverted. You get used to it and learn to ‘turn it on’ when you need to. There are a lot of extroverts working in public affairs but you need all types of people to build policy from the ground up, and there are many introverts enjoying a successful career in policy too.